This site makes extensive use of JavaScript.
Please enable JavaScript in your browser.
Live
PTR
10.2.7
PTR
10.2.6
Beta
Stat Weighting Presets: Post the latest updates here
Post Reply
Return to board index
Post by
Malgayne
So the
weight scale
presets on the site have a tendency to get out of date very quickly. We want to avoid this, but we don't have enough people to do the theorycrafting ourselves—even trying to find and validate the theorycraft that other people have done is extremely difficult and time consuming—especially if you don't play the class in question.
So with that in mind, I'm posting a thread like this in every class forum. What I need is for you guys to let us know what the latest theorycraft is for your class and spec—whether it's Pawn values, an EJ post, something from ShadowPanther, Rawr, or whatever it may be. With this information, we'll be able to keep the weight scales up to date more easily, and make sure we always have the latest info.
What we need:
The actual weight values for each statistic
A link to the source information for the theorycraft
About when the theorycraft was done (to make sure it's recent)
Don't forget that no possible set of weight values will be right for EVERY character. Remember that the weight values should be calculated for a character who is
not capped
on any stat. We're looking primarily for weight scale results for fresh players of the max level here.
If the weight scales have gone too long without being updated, just put up a post in
Site Feedback
directing our attention to the relevant post in this thread.
Please Note:
Any post in this thread which is NOT a weight scale post will be deleted. Gotta keep this clean.(##RESPBREAK##)8##DELIM##Gnub##DELIM##
Post by
svirve
First of all these are not my numbers and i have in no way taken part in determining them.
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t37269-pawn_values_all_specs/
A complete copy paste of the pawn values from EJ:
Retribution Paladin values from Redcape's spreadsheet:
( Pawn: v1: "Ret PvE": ArmorPenetration=0.7, CritRating=0.9, Dps=6.15, Strength=1.7, Agility=0.84, ExpertiseRating=1.64, HasteRating=0.81, HitRating=1.9, Ap=0.67, MetaSocket=107, RedSocket=26, YellowSocket=26, BlueSocket=25, )
My personal Retribution PvP numbers:
( Pawn: v1: "Ret PvP": Armor=0.05, ArmorPenetration=0.8, CritRating=0.85, Dps=6, Strength=1.7, Agility=0.8, ExpertiseRating=0.7, HasteRating=0.6, HitRating=2, Ap=0.65, ResilienceRating = 1.1, Stamina = 0.8, MetaSocket=107 )
My personal Holy Paladin numbers:
( Pawn: v1: "Holy": Intellect=2.6, RedSocket=24, CritRating=1.21, MetaSocket=155, HasteRating=0.9, BlueSocket=19, SpellPower=1.5, Mp5=2.3, YellowSocket=30 )
This is taken from the Prot item weights from a Wowhead thread. Note to have separate weights for avoidance and survival.
Protection Paladin:
( Pawn: v1: "Prot": Strength=0.4, DefenseRating=1, Stamina=0.98, DodgeRating=0.94, ParryRating=0.88, Agility=0.81, BlockRating=0.63, ExpertiseRating=0.2, BlockValue=0.25, HitRating=0.19, Armor=0.08, SpellPower=0.2,)
Mitigation
( Pawn: v1: "ProtMit": Strength=9.5, DefenseRating=16.5, Stamina=19.1, DodgeRating=18, ParryRating=14.5, Agility=14.5, BlockRating=1.0, ExpertiseRating=1.5, BlockValue=16.5, HitRating=1.1, Armor=1.2, SpellPower=0.8, Ap=1.2, CritRating=0.6,)
Once again these are not my numbers i am simply forwarding them. All the credit goes to
frmorrison and all that credited
to the numbers on the EJ forums.
Last update seems to be:
Last edited by frmorrison : 05/06/09 at 12:48 AM.
Post by
119801
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
43387
This post was from a user who has deleted their account.
Post by
Quest
To the last two posts; Neither of you posted links, just opinions backed up by zero data. Also, understand that tanking alone has several different styles. Avoidance, mitigation, TPS, TTL, to name a few.
Post by
Squishalot
Link to some weighting research being done on the Protribution spec.
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=101813.9&p=1196011
Why are we even worrying about weightings in isolation, when the impact is so dependent on the character's gear level?
Post by
Quest
Link to some weighting research being done on the Protribution spec.
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&topic=101813.9&p=1196011
Why are we even worrying about weightings in isolation, when the impact is so dependent on the character's gear level?
I would say the impact is greater on what is trying to be done. Esp for this class and other hybrids. I would suggest Malgayne to possibly expand it beyond the scope of simply "Tree" and consider a much more practical approach of "what am I trying to do exactly?"
For instance, the simple role of
tanking,
alone has several deviations.
1. TPS
2. Effective Health
3. Avoidance
4. Block
As it stands, the current weightings are very inaccurate in terms of any of the above. They may get one or two 'Best in Slot' (BiS) items for, say, #1, but those same items will almost certainly not be best in slot for #3.
For other classess it is not as profound an error. Although haste, spell penetration, and if youre PvP/PvE/Arena
can
greatly change BiS.
Though it would probably be too much work for this site (youd have to hire a few guys), if you really wanted proper analysis of classes based on PvP/PvE/Arena, there are actually surprisingly few builds that are THE best, but surprisingly alot of methods to approach encounters.
For example; Paladin tanking--->TPS approach.
Contains a large amount of analysis, and it changes slightly every few patches.
http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20823
From the link one could easily extrapolate extreemly accurate state weightings, and have the advantage of knowing what build is optimal as well. The caveat of that is obviously, as I said before, not every Paladin tank will survive doing maximum TPS in some encounters, while in others, max TPS might be vital and his raid will not survive unless he min/max in that respect.
Post by
Squishalot
But even within a TPS analysis, you're going to run into problems. The stat weighting for TPS at an Ulduar 25 gearing level will be different from the stat weighting at a fresh 80-in-greens level. Sure, you can still put together a BiS item list, but it might not help make a less-geared player make optimal gear choices based on their current gear level?
Look at the Retribution mantra - get hit capped, then go for strength. That's not always going to be the case, for lower level/geared characters, who don't have sufficient Strength and do enough damage to make Hit a viable stat to improve.
Post by
Quest
Yes, i see what you're saying. Each point of strength (for instance) becomes less valuable in relation than the last due to itemization having to trade one stat for something else.
At a certain point they cross as in this graph.
http://sites.google.com/site/theckhd/images/32ptr_stat_str_tps.png
A solution to this would be Malgayne to consider splitting things up not only into "what is my goal" categories, but also "5man/Raid" categories. But this sort of is alot of work and I dont expect them to even do the first part really :P . Also generally in a 5man environment where what you're saying is more relevant, the current implementation Wowhead has is adequate.
Basically, i dont think its practical in this example at least if you ever plan to move out of 5man->Raid, you would be more wise to start gearing like you would as if your gear was 213+ purples, because a couple purples into your RAID experience and the rest of your gear is not going to match when stat ratios like that finally cross over. You're insuring optimal stats in the beginning of long future (RAID), at the expense of suboptimal stats in the short present (5man).
Post by
Quest
EDIT: See my newer post.
Alright been TEHRET for a while and done a bit of research, through Rawr and spreadsheets and EJ in general and test dummies and other forums. I may edit this though but generally I think this is accurate.
Stat Weights for Retribution as follows: (Old and raggid)
Hit: 125
(till cap; 5%pvp 8%pve, sharply loses value after melee cap, and generaly shouldn't be bothered with after.)
DPS: 588
Strength: 100
Expertise: 83
(till cap)
Crit: 50
AP: 42
Agi: 40
Haste: 38
ArmPen: 27
SP: 11
Sources:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t68951-retribution_3_2_a/
http://www.wowhead.com/?forums&board=7
actually playing the game as a ret paladin in lategame content . com
Post by
Squishalot
Question for Quest - > Why is Expertise ranked lower than Hit on a point-for-point basis?
According to Svirve's cap thread:
32.79 Expertise rating = 1% dodge removal
32.79 Hit rating = 1% miss removal
Shouldn't they have the same effect, assuming you're attacking from behind?
Post by
Hyperspacerebel
Question for Quest - > Why is Expertise ranked lower than Hit on a point-for-point basis?
According to Svirve's cap thread:
32.79 Expertise rating = 1% dodge removal
32.79 Hit rating = 1% miss removal
Shouldn't they have the same effect, assuming you're attacking from behind?
Wouldn't the fact that Judgments and Exorcism cannot be blocked, dodged or parried automatically make hit > expertise?
Post by
Squishalot
Question for Quest - > Why is Expertise ranked lower than Hit on a point-for-point basis?
According to Svirve's cap thread:
32.79 Expertise rating = 1% dodge removal
32.79 Hit rating = 1% miss removal
Shouldn't they have the same effect, assuming you're attacking from behind?
Wouldn't the fact that Judgments and Exorcism cannot be blocked, dodged or parried automatically make hit > expertise?
True. I hadn't considered that, admittedly. All good.
Post by
AnrDaemon
For instance, the simple role of
tanking,
alone has several deviations.
1. TPS
2. Effective Health
3. Avoidance
4. Block
As it stands, the current weightings are very inaccurate in terms of any of the above. They may get one or two 'Best in Slot' (BiS) items for, say, #1, but those same items will almost certainly not be best in slot for #3.
Confirming the above. Right now building avoidance-capped tank, has troubles judging gear from weighted preset.
I'm not good myself at theorycrafting, but i'm doing my best... with help of RatingBuster.
Post by
blademeld
Right now building avoidance-capped tank.
There is no such thing as an avoidance capp due to the fact that avoidance is on a diminishing return.
I use the following for pure avoidance tanking, there is no math involved, just tweaking on my part:
100 Dodge
89 Defense
89 Parry
76 Stamina
60 Block Rating
52 Block Value
30 Strength
9 Armor
Post by
AnrDaemon
Well, however, i mean the "uncrushable" moment. Because, as you pointed out, "unhittable" is the unachievable dream.
Post by
blademeld
Assuming a diminished ~35% dodge, 22% parry and 8% miss + 10% block + 30% Holy Shield you can get "uncrushable", but those are rather high numbers.
Post by
AnrDaemon
Nope. Right now, i'm missing about 3.5%, and i didn't even picked all the upgrades available for badges, only neck, belt and T8.5 pair.
As i'm getting more and more innate Def from items, i gonna see if i can change turtle for something more efficient that match my char level.
And, well, lets move out from this topic, will we? It's about weighted presets, not individual gearing preferences.
Post by
blademeld
Preferences?
I was merely answering your question and correcting you.
Post by
AnrDaemon
Umm, well, then allow me a question to your preset. You said already that you "just put them together", but I suppose you've had some reasoning to put things this way, even they are other than math?
Could you please explain it, if you have time?
Post Reply
You are not logged in. Please
log in
to post a reply or
register
if you don't already have an account.